Defectors: Paola Ramos Dissects the Latino Far Right

_{Originally published in The Latino Newsletter–reprinted with permission.}

As we barrel towards Election Day on November 5, there is more than enough data to slice and dice the electorate and come up with conclusions where each presidential candidate can win.

Until then, much is unknown. But when it comes to Latino voters, the analysis often doesn’t go deeper than infrequent polls with small sample sizes.

In her new book, DEFECTORS: The Rise of the Latino Far Right and What it Means for America, MSNBC and Telemundo contributor Paola Ramos uncovers a story no one else has told in-depth. Early on, she says this book is not about the Latino vote but about how and why a subset of Hispanics across the country are being seduced by far-right narratives. Still, as she goes on, you notice Ramos is giving you a rare window into how a growing number of Latinos are thinking, which could have serious implications not only for November, but beyond.

Adrian Carrasquillo: It might be shocking to some that your book is about the rise of the Latino far right and how some have been seduced by extremism, white supremacy, and Trumpism. At its heart, you write, it can be explained by three influences: tribalism, traditionalism, and trauma. Can you explain what those are and how you saw those manifest with the subjects of your book?

Paola Ramos: So I'll start by saying that the easy way to write this book or to help explain —and I always say this— the small but growing group of Latinos that are sort of resorting to Trumpism is to just look at the politics, to talk about Trump and Trump’s appeal.

And I think the harder part, the homework, is really to understand if you look back at our history, how can you explain all of this? And so in doing that and sort of thinking about everyone that I had been interviewing for the past four plus years from the anti-Blackness I was noticing among some groups, anti-immigrant sentiment from a lot of the people that I was meeting at the border, and the rise of the Latino evangelical movement that I had reported on. In thinking about that, I came up with the three Ts: tribalism, traditionalism, and trauma.

The tribalism is about the sort of internalized racism that I believe many Latinos carry with them, the sort of racial baggage. The traditionalism is about understanding the way that colonization in those colonial times, how has that impacted our framing of values? And then the trauma, which people are more familiar with, is not just thinking about the effect of communism, but also thinking about the effect of why some Latinos find this yearning for strongmen so appealing.

And so you can think about many different examples through tribalism, whether it's the Afro-Latina hair salon owner in the Bronx, and when you ask them about their race, they can't tell you that they're Black. Where does that come from? Or whether it's spending time at the border with [border vigilante] Anthony Aguero, that is so fixated on this anti-immigrant sentiment, where does that come from?

Or the fascination and the romanticization of the Spanish colonizer, or even with my accent, when I'm talking to Latinos and they're like, “I love your accent. I love this Spanish accent you have.” Where does this romanticized idea of the Spanish colonizers come from? That's sort of the tribalism.

The traditionalism, that comes to me from spending a lot of time having uncomfortable conversations and moments with some Latinos where sort of the breaking point is the homophobia and the transphobia. And yes, then obviously spending a lot of time thinking about Christian nationalism and evangelicals. But really what drove me to understand that is why does the transphobia work so well among us? And then the political trauma, for decades the socialism schtick worked so well, but I thought it was always beyond that.

I think the more interesting question was how has the United States conditioned Latinos in Latin America and then here to sort of resort to this strongman appeal.

AC:My dad was Puerto Rican and when he saw a criminal on the news, if they were Puerto Rican, he would say with a sigh, '“Tenía que ser puertorriqueño.” “He had to be Puerto Rican.” I learned at an early age that bringing shame to your culture was among the worst crimes you could commit. So as I read in your book about Latino border vigilantes hunting migrants, a Cuban confederate joining a white supremacist group and violently attacking protesters, a Latino Proud Boy who helped mastermind the January 6 attack on the Capitol, I wondered do you find that you can’t help but judge those people for turning on their own kind or was your journey with these interviews more complex because of what you were trying to uncover?

PR: No, I mean, I think the gut reaction is to judge. And I think walking into every single one of these interviews I was very guarded. I was nervous. I had my own biases. Of course, when you're talking to a January 6th insurrectionist, you walk into these interviews already with preconceived ideas notions of what you're about to feel, and it's happened in every single interview from [Proud Boy] Enrique Tarrio to border vigilante Anthony Aguero, to the pastors that I've interviewed to Moms for Liberty, to [Cuban confederate] Christopher Monzon.

I walk in as a human. As a human that's gay, as a human that's a woman, as a human that has a lot of Black and undocumented friends.

We're reporters first, but we're humans at the end.

And so absolutely there was an inevitable level of judgment. But then what's interesting, and I think what I try to force myself to do, which is a harder thing to do, is just have an open mind and try really hard to listen to what people are telling you. And then in the listening then there's a moment in the interviews where it becomes less tense and less politicized and you get to the heart of what's driving people to these movements and kind of what I uncover in the book, which is nothing new, but it's that to be in this country requires a very painful journey to seek belonging. And to some people that belonging leads you to an evangelical church. To some people that belonging takes you to the Proud Boys. To some women, it was from Moms for Liberty. To some people like Christopher, it was to feel wanted among Christian nationalists. And so once you understand the psychology of the why, then you can perhaps become a little bit more empathetic and you expect the same in return.

AC:You draw a pulsing red line from anti-Blackness in the Latino community to violence against Black people. I could envision a critic saying “I identify as Hispanic, I’m not Black” —someone who clearly harbors some resentment and fear— but who would say that doesn’t mean I would ever be violent toward someone. Why did you feel it was important to draw the connections in your book from rhetoric to eventual violent actions from members of that group?

PR: Inevitably, I think back to Donald Trump going to the Bronx. When Donald Trump goes to the Bronx, everyone was laughing, they thought it was hysterical and absurd that he would find anything to do in the Bronx surrounded by many Afro-Latinos and Afro-Dominicans.

And so before he went there, I had already spent some time in the Bronx myself understanding the way that Republicans did a very masterful job at leaning into the racial grievances that they believed would work amongst some Black Latinos and some Latinos from the Bronx leaning into, particularly, criminalizing Black Lives Matter and leaning into that crime rhetoric.

And that's exactly what we saw in the 2020 election after George Floyd. And we saw that in the midterm election. And I thought it was important to understand why would they do that? Because again, I think for average people, it makes no sense that a Black Latino would support a Donald Trump, particularly using this criminalizing language around Black Lives Matter and the looting.

And the perfect example that I have in that moment was to your point, walking into a hair salon, spending so much time there, but then getting to the heart of it, which was facing a Afro-Latina, an Afro-Dominican who identifies as Hispanic, but then when pressed and when you say, and what is your race? She couldn't get the words out, I'm Black. She couldn't. I think for us as reporters, to understand where that comes from is really important. And that's sort of the easy part. Now, then when it turns into violence, it's another thing. But the easy part is understanding that that has everything to do with the internalized racism. It has everything to do with our history.

We've all been guilty of creating the illusion that Latin America is raceless and then giving people permission, including Black Latinos, Indigenous Latinos giving us all permission to link ourselves to the Spanish colonizers, which is what was happening to that Afro-Dominican hair salon owner in the Bronx. She wasn't Black because in her eyes, she saw her lineage to white Europeans as a stronger factor to identify than her Blackness that we can understand. But then I think it's a matter of milliseconds when that rhetoric can turn into violence. I think it's why it was important to show that as Latinos we are not immune to anti-Blackness, to violence, or to anti-immigrant sentiments. There's examples in history even going into January 6th. What is it that some Latinos found so appealing about January 6th? To me, it was the culmination of the anti-Blackness and anti-immigrant rhetoric of white nationalism.

AC:It seems a connection can be made between the falling faith in institutions and what happened in Colorado Springs in 2022. A gunman entered a gay nightclub, killing 5 people and injuring 20. But the day after the shooting flyers sent to Latino homes in the community alleged the Biden administration was removing children’s genitals and breasts, and forcing hormones and testosterone on underaged children. You found they were paid for by America First Legal Foundation, spearheaded by Stephen Miller. I know Latino Republicans who say disinformation is just information the left doesn’t like but it seems this kind of shameless disinformation is how Latino hearts and minds can be hardened against the empathy you write they have on issues like immigration and abortion, but seems to be in shorter supply when it comes to LGBTQ+ and trans people?

PR: I think it is easy for some, and again, I always want to specify for some Latinos, to fall back to patterns that are comforting to gender and sexual norms that they know. I think it's equally important to understand why a Stephen Miller would even dare to target Spanish-language speakers in Colorado specifically using this transphobic language.

I think they believe it creates a type of moral panic that is familiar for many Latinos. These are patriarchal norms like men feeling discomfort around power dynamics and queer people. I think if you put the politics aside, when democracy and society feels messy for many people, but I think particularly for Latinos that have tried so hard to make it in this country, they can fall back on the three T’s.

I write about this, but going back to the Spanish colonizer Francisco Pizarro walking into Ecuador, what is his first impression when he's faced with indigenous effeminate males? It's to have a lot of disgust. When you have a Vasco Núñez de Balboa stepping into a Panama, and he's faced with two-spirited Indigenous folks that have always been part of the Latin American culture, what's the first instinct? To kill them. He kills over 600 two-spirited people. And I think that sentiment of disgust, which I write about in this book, is more powerful than anger and fear. And that disgust leads to dehumanizing people. It has been ingrained in our brains for centuries from the colonial times, obviously through Catholicism, through the American, evangelical missions in Latin America. So it's really easy for those sentiments to be transported to the U.S. particularly when you have Republicans trying to exploit that with disinformation that is obviously just there to create a lot of fear among people.

AC:In the introduction, you write this book is not about the Latino vote, but time and time again I felt I was learning about specific issues that lead Latinos to embrace Trump. You write about the political trauma many Latinos bring from Latin America but also the “God, Family, Country” message that acts like a salve coming not just from Latino evangelical leaders, but even politicians like Texas Gov. Greg Abbott who used it during his campaign. It struck me that “God, Family, Country” offers safety and stability in turning the page from your past. Can you talk about how this dynamic draws Latinos to Republicans?

PR: I think it goes back to the trans issue and what the breaking point is. Right now a lot of the conversations that you have with Latinos is the breaking point is here's where Democrats have gone too far. Yes, you can humanize abortion if you have to. Yes, you can humanize asylum seekers if you have to. But then there seems to be a breaking point, which is the trans issue of it all is way too much. And so I think when you have some Republicans that are offering Latinos a message that resonates, that's familiar, a message that has very much been circulated around Latin America for centuries, which is “God, Family, Country,” those are literally the principles of the colonial times. That familiarity, in the face of a country that's changing, in the face of gender norms that are changing, in the face of a lot of diversity. That can be really powerful. And a lot of Republicans in south Texas like Mayra Flores and Monica de La Cruz did it really well. Luring Latinos with those words.

AC: For Democrats and as we move beyond 2024, you skillfully write about the openings the far right, MAGA, and disinformation messengers are exploiting, and I can envision Democrats and progressives wanting to create groups or campaigns to begin to properly fight back. Can you talk about the importance of reaching Trump-curious voters or Latinos disillusioned with the Democratic Party? What would they need to keep in mind about what you learned about these Latinos for them to have some impact/success?

PR: I feel this immense pushback all the time when you even present the idea that Trump is making any inroads. Time and time again, you have conversations with Democrats or political operatives or pollsters, and the first thing that they will tell you is you're sensationalizing it. And I think it's extremely alarming to not be concerned about the fact that someone like Donald Trump is even close to 40% of the Latino vote. It blows my mind. And so I would start with the idea of doing justice to the community is understanding and being curious about the why. Be very, very curious about why someone like Donald Trump is polling between 38% to 40%. And if you think that's okay, then I think that's an extremely alarming thing to live with.

It also seems like Democrats are falling into Republican political traps, seeing the way that the country is going to the right on things like immigration, believing that Latinos are warming up to the idea of mass deportations. Maybe there's a short-term political win there, but I still do believe that Democrats need to be normalizing the other side of the story, which is the way that Biden won in 2020, which was humanizing the border, asylum seekers, and those families that were being separated. You barely hear any of that. In the long term, leaning into what Democrats allegedly have always been about, which has always been the biggest contrast with Trump, is being able to humanize immigrants. And I see none of that.

AC: At the end of the book you write about your father, the legendary newsman Jorge Ramos at Univision beginning to question the network’s journalistic integrity and independence. They famously had a Trump interview last fall that was viewed as a softball and not up to the network’s past standards. Since you wrote that, your father announced this month that he is leaving the network after 38 years. Can you talk to me about how your book dovetails maybe with where your father finds himself? And feel free to break news about his next career steps.

PR: I won't do any breaking news because you’ll do that on your own as you usually do. First I'll say it was a conclusion both parties came to at the same time. But I do think beyond my father's departure from Univision, that the Spanish-language media ecosystem is kind of mirroring some of the themes that I write in my book, which is I think everyone's trying to answer this one question: Why hasn't there been a Spanish-language Fox News?

And I think there's this idea among many networks that Latinos are yearning to have more conservative content and different points of view than the one that they have been receiving from someone like my dad for 30 plus years at Univision. It is a changing landscape that believes some Latinos want more conservative hosts and more conservative content and perhaps want interviewers and hosts that don't challenge power, don't challenge people like Donald Trump, and don't push back. I’ll leave it at that.